Friday, February 3, 2012 - 12:45 PM

In my last post, I published an overhead photograph of several hundred Muslim prisoners in a field at a place called Nova Kasaba in Bosnia, and posed a question: what happened to these people? The answer to that question is contained in the photograph above: the vast majority of the men photographed by an American spy satellite around 14:00 on July 13 ended up in mass graves, like the one above at Branjevo Military Farm.
By coincidence, a survivor from Branjevo testified on Thursday at the Yugoslav war crimes trial of Radovan Karadzic. He appeared as a "protected witness" under the codename KDZ-333. Cross-examined by the former Bosnian Serb president, KDZ-333 said he was somewhere in the middle of the crowd in the American intelligence photo. Before nightfall on July 13, buses arrived to collect the prisoners, who were ambushed by Serb forces after fleeing the United Nations "safe area" of Srebrenica. The prisoners were taken to the town of Bratunac, where they spent the night in the buses.
The following morning, KDZ-333 testified, his group of prisoners was taken to an elementary school near the village of Pilica, thirty miles north of Bratunac. They were herded into a gym where they were robbed of their remaining money and valuables. Some prisoners were taken out and shot. After two nights in the gym, they were driven to the Branjevo farm, where they were lined up in front of a pre-dug grave and shot on July 16, 1995. KDZ-333 says that the bullets passed between his body and his arm, which is how he survived.
Other groups of
prisoners were taken in buses to the same general area around the town of
Zvornik, and detained in local schools.
After one or two days in detention, they were taken to execution sites nearby
that were later identified through a combination of eyewitness testimony and
American reconnaissance photographs. I have plotted these execution sites,
associated detention sites, and embedded reconnaissance imagery on the Google
Earth map below. You can use the controls at the top right hand side of the
gadget to explore the area in depth.
Red icons on the map identify the execution sites; the blue icons mark the schools where the prisoners were detained. Click on any of the icons for further details. Double click any of the red icons in to discover overlays of the declassified American spy imagery used to locate the sites. Single click any of the blue icons to see photographs of the schools where the prisoners were detained.
One of the overhead reconnaissance images, which shows the Branjevo military farm the day after the executions, is posted below.
International Criminal Tribunal for Former Yugoslavia
The worst thing people can do is treat this as something from the distant past.
It makes it too easy to deny and deceive when it doesn't appear current or real to people. The world needs to see the photos, see the bodies and hear the accounts.
Tone Down Your Rhetoric Mr. Dobbs
Mr. Dobbs, Establishing what happened to the men at Nova Kasaba and the Branjevo Military Farm is important, but using headlines like "Inside the machinery of genocide" and putting up a picture of Mladic and a caption reading "Michael Dobbs Explores the Origins of Evil" are propagandistic and inflammatory.
I see the Srebrenica massacre as a terrible event that was not justified by military necessity, but that's also how I see the wholesale carpet bombing of cities like Dresden and Hamburg, the fire bombing of Tokyo, and the nuclear attacks on Japan -- all of which had far more victims, and mainly civilian victims at that, than Srebrenica.
If I'm not mistaken, you're British. Can you imagine a British journalist writing an article about the RAF's carpet bombing in Germany during the Second World War -- and lets say they led the article with a picture of German civilians killed in the bombing and a picture of Winston Churchill with a caption calling him "evil" and a headline accusing him of "genocide".
I'm an American. I can tell you that it would not go over well in this country if a journalist here started calling Roosevelt and Truman "evil" and accusing them of genocide for what they did to Japan's civilian population during World War II -- which is far worse than anything the Serbs even thought of doing to the Bosnian Muslims.
Events like this need to be seen in context, and I think Srebrenica is being looked at in a vacuum. Germany and Japan were the primary instigators of the Second World War. Whatever abuses the German and Japanese civilian population suffered at the hands of the Allies they suffered as the result of a war that that their own government started. The same principle holds true in Bosnia -- whatever abuses the Bosnian-Muslims endured, they endured in a war that their own government started.
The Bosnian-Serbs may be guilty of some crimes over the course of the Bosnian war, but one thing they're not guilty for is the war itself.
That's why I think it's as wrongheaded to call Karadzic and Mladic "genocidal" and "evil" as I think it would be to affix those labels to Churchill, Roosevelt, Eisenhower, or any of the Allied leaders for the suffering of the German and Japanese civilian population during World War II.
"German and Japanese civilian population suffered at the hands of the Allies as the result of a war that that their own governments started. The same principle holds true in Bosnia -- whatever abuses the Bosnian-Muslims endured, they endured in a war that their own government started." Jihadi Izetbegovic was urged by US Ambassador Zimmerman to reject the Lisbon Treaty that would have prevented war. The US wanted the war; the UK wanted the war. Bosnian Serbs had accepted the treaty. Muslims and Croats, alte Kameraden of the 3rd Reich, voted to secede from Yugoslavia, a multi-ethnic state. Serbs boycotted the election. They wanted no "Greater Serbia" (Austria's 1914 precursor of WMD). They wanted to live in multi-ethnic Yugoslavia, not as ethnic minorities in neo-fascist statelets, proxies of re-united Germany, Austria, the Vatican, and "the Muslim World"... I'm no Serb, no Slav, not Orthodox, but an old Irish Catholic American... Trevelyan said the Irish brought down on their head His punishment of starvation for their disobedience.. Our Brit Dobbs may just be the congenital genocidist. That wasn't such ancient history, either. My mother's father, born 1839, was a boy during the great Starvation.
What about rules of armed conflict. Is everything to be allowed in war even if we can blame the start on one party. Does it justify mass murder. What about Geneva conventions? This is the most insane logic i have ever heard. That is why world hates Americans. It is not because what stupid Bush said because of their freedom but precisely because of the narrow world view being purported by you. Killing of civilians in Hamburg and Dreseden as well as Nuclear Attack on Japan were genocide and should be treated as such
@ FARHANSK -- I respect your consistency. I don't believe there is any evidence showing that the Allies intended to destroy the German and Japanese ethinic groups as such, but I appreciate the fact that you use a consistent definition of genocide and apply it to everyone. At least you're not a hypocrite like some people here.
Unfortunately, the truth about the "rules of Armed Conflict" and the Geneva Conventions is that they're not consistently enforced. All they really are is a way for the people who win wars to punish people who lose wars. That's why Bush gets to retire to his ranch in Texas and why Saddam Hussein gets hanged.
In practice you can violate international law to your heart's content as long as you win, or at least don't lose, the war. The only difference between a war criminal and a war hero is whether or not they won the war. That is why Roosevelt, Churchill, Eisenhower, Truman, etc... are revered as heroes, and why Karadzic and Mladic are reviled as villains.
See the photss, see the bodies, hear the accounts -- from all?
Pious SPood: "The world needs to see the photos, see the bodies and hear the accounts." Did you hear/see Karadzic on US TV saying that from Christmas 1992 to Easter 1993 the number of Serb Christian civilians massacred by Muslims was 1900+. Japanese photojournalist Yasunari Mizugichi in April1994 showed me tapes he shot at Milici (Bosnia) in Aug 1993 of Serbs trussed, impaled on stakes and while alive roasted over fires. We sent the photos to NYT WSJ CSM. Ridicule from Tony Lewis, et al.. Daniel Pearl was sent to Pakistan... If you commune with spirits ask Danny Pearl to tell bout decapitation, or watch mujahid TV... They use a sawing technique, Takes about 20 minutes hard sawing...
War criminals on all sides have been haled in front of the World Court for their actions. When they have Croat and Bosnian war criminals on the dock, feel free to bring them up in discussion.
Right now we have one of the chief actors on the part of Serbia. So of course Serbian atrocities are relevant to current events. Considering Karadzic is an accused war criminal in his own right, I will take his assertions with a heaping dose of salt. As someone accused of genocide himself, he hardly constitutes the most objective source.
Your reference to Yasunari Mizugichi is not even from an actual primary source. You are quoting an unfounded assertion from an Anti-muslim screed The Coming Balkan Caliphate Christopher Deliso.
Again, not sources one can deem as being reliable.
SPOOD & screeds & primary sources
SPOOD, you are talking through your hat, like Hoare or Vulliamy. You wrote: "Yasunari Mizugichi is not even from an actual primary source. You are quoting an unfounded assertion from an Anti-muslim screed The Coming Balkan Caliphate Christopher Deliso." SPOOD, your balony is a many-splendored sausage. Calling a book a screed is just a smear. Spood does not point out a single fault in Deliso's book. Spood's language is feckless rhetoric employed in the absence of facts. In April 1994, on Dedinje hill in Belgrade, the videotapes of the impaled and roasted Serbs that were taken at Milici (Bosnia) in August 1993 by Yasunari Mizuguchi were shown to the primary source. That source, Deliso's source, c'est moi --JPMaher. I am actual. I have the receipts for my laundry, phone and electric bills to prove it.
Behind the curtain lurks the Wizard of Oz or the Wizard of Spood. Whichever, I'm the source that "Spood" is in denial about. Scribo, ergo sum.
Serbian "perpetrators" but only Muslim bodies?
There are over 30,000 dead Serbs in Bosnia... why Mr. Dobbs, are there no photographs or any running dialogue whatsoever about how they were killed? Your continued silence about the 3,200 Serb women and children murdered by Nasir Oric and his thugs in those 34 Serb villages that surrounded Srebrenica only reveals your talent at partisan journalism and your disgusting biased reports.
Of course the Serbs killed hundreds even a few thousands combatants who were responsible for the deaths of these 3,200 Serbian women and children, but pretending that the Muslims did not murder, decapitate and slaughter Serbs makes you look like a "genocide" opportunist, Mr. Dobbs.
If your wife and children were among those 3,200 Serbian women and children I would suspect that when captured you might resort to revenge as well. That is not "genocide."
I recall early in the war in Croatia when the Croats razed an entire village of Serbs killing all of the women and children and when the Serbs discovered the Croat perpetrators were hiding in the local hospital pretending to be sick, the Serbs were so distraught that they captured them, line them up and shot them ... but that is still not Genocide, that is revenge killings, so stop pretending that revenge killings did not take place on all 3 sides in this three-sided Civil War.
To the genocide deniers, one and all
Moral equivalence arguments are crap. There are no excuses for genocide, ever. As for the tired claims of bias and misrepresentation, they are also crap.
War criminals on ALL sides of this conflict have been haled in front of the World Court. The tired trope that only the Muslim victims are being noticed by the world is merely just a way to divert attention from current events. Fact of the matter was, there was a specific policy to wipe out entire Bosnian Muslim populations by the Serbs (and initially the Croats as well).
For all of the complaining of the lack of accounting for serbian deaths, my response is show me where there was ever an official policy by Bosnian Muslims to wipe Serbs out of Bosnia and then I can take it seriously
As for culpability for the massacres, all I have to say is the term "Ethnic cleansing" came from the Serbs. It denotes a specific intention to commit mass murder.
AndyWilcoxson, you are dead wrong. We do not condemn Churchill and FDR as being genocidal because the Nazis were the cause of the war but because their actions clearly were not.
This is the kind of dishonest conflation seen by people seeking to find excuses for mass murders and show them in a more sympathetic light.
At no point did the Allies specifically target an entire population for mass murder. Dresden and Hiroshima are not equivalents to Nanking and Auschwitz by any stretch of the imagination. There is a big difference between reporting casualties of war on the spot and uncovering graves meant to cover up a massacre.
Srebenicia was part and parcel with an entire modus operandi of genocidal actions. It is evil. Plain and simple.
@ Spood - You're right, "Dresden and Hiroshima are not equivalents to Nanking and Auschwitz by any stretch of the imagination", but they're more than equivalent to Srebrenica.
Between 25,000 and 100,000 people were killed in Dresden and another 90,000 to 166,000 people were killed in Hiroshima -- and in both instances most of the dead were civilians including women and children. The death of 8,000 soldiers and draft eligible men from Srebrenica is nothing in comparison.
You're right, the Allies didn't specifically target the population, they targeted the entire cities, which happened to include the population. They weren't just trying to destroy a bridge here and a munitions factory there, they were trying to lay waste to entire cities.
9-10 Mar 1945, Operation Meetinghouse: 279 B-29 bombers dropped incendiary bombs and destroyed 267,000 buildings and homes laying waste to 41 square kilometers of Tokyo. Americans estimated 88,000 killed, 41,000 injured, and 1,000,000 displaced. Other estimates place the death toll at 100,000. They did that in one night and the managed to kill and displace as many people as the entire Bosnian war.
I agree with you that FDR and Churchill's actions in World War II "clearly were not" genocidal, but the fact remains that FDR and Churchill presided over military attacks that killed and displaced far more civilians than Karadzic and Mladic ever did. Karadzic and Mladic's actions are even more clearly not genocidal.
More bullshit equivalence arguments by Andywilcoxin
"Karadzic and Mladic's actions are even more clearly not genocidal."
All you did was describe some allied attacks and claimed they had a higher body count. Then you followed it up with a ridiculous unfounded statement as if it were some conclusion to an argument.
Of course Karadzic and Mladic's actions are clearly genocidal. There was a deliberate and systematic action to wipe out entire groups of people based on their ethnicity. That IS genocide by any definition of the term. You saying it isn't so doesn't mean squat. You have given me absolutely no reason to consider this differently.
Genocide is not an action which can be excused under any circumstances nor can its horrors be mitigated by reference to acts which have no relation to it whatsoever.
The Body Count Is the Evidence
Spood - The body count is the entire basis for the ICTY's finding of genocidal intent in Srebrenica. The Krstic Appeal judgment says, "The main evidence underlying the Trial Chamber's conclusion that the VRS forces intended to eliminate all the Bosnian Muslims of Srebrenica was the massacre by the VRS of all (sic) men of military age from that community. The killing of the military aged men was, assuredly, a physical destruction, and given the scope of the killings the Trial Chamber could legitimately draw the inference that their extermination was motivated by a genocidal intent."
Other than the scope of the killings, there is no other evidence of a genocidal plan by the Bosnian-Serbs to destroy the Bosnian-Muslim ethnic group. The Krstic Appeal chamber conceded the Defense's argument that "the record contains no statements by members of the VRS Main Staff indicating that the killing of the Bosnian Muslim men was motivated by genocidal intent to destroy the Bosnian Muslims of Srebrenica." but ruled that "The absence of such statements is not determinative."
Because the scope of the killings is the basis for the ICTY's finding of genocide, it holds that any military operation with a larger number of victims than Srebrenica must be genocidal too. The Allies carried out attacks in which the scope of the killing was far greater than Srebrenica, therefore if you believe genocide was committed in Srebrenica you have to believe that the Allies were guilty of genocide too. You can't have things both ways. You can't argue that the deaths of 8,000 soldiers and draft eligible men from Srebrenica through a combination of combat operations and summary executions is genocide, but the burning alive through incendiary bombing of more than eleven times that many civilian men, women, and children in Tokyo isn't. That argument just doesn't hold.
The Bosnian-Serbs did not undertake any "deliberate and systematic action to wipe out entire groups of people based on their ethnicity". They, just like the Croats and the Muslims, undertook action to expel people from certain territories based on their ethnicity, but they did not undertake any action to destroy any ethnic group. The death toll of the Bosnian war just isn't high enough to substantiate a claim like that.
In 1991 (before the war) Bosnia's population was 43% Muslim, yet in 2002 (after the war) Muslims were 48% of Bosnia's population. Usually, after a genocide is committed, you expect to find less of the victim population, not more. Your argument doesn't stand.
To the open minded, educated viewers of this unfortunate website, notice that the Bosnian Muslim extremists tend to expose themselves for who they are by engaging in the most filthy, primitive form of slander and foul-mouthed language (I guess advertising their educational level) in trying to get their inaccurate, irrational, and bogus arguments across. They also scream from the safety of their anonymous internet names. Just like their ancestors would hide behind the backs of the nazis and slaughter the Serbs in the back. I pray that Bosnia will one day heal from it's horrific wounds as I do for the rest of the former Yugoslavia. But all of the Yugoslav peoples must come to terms with their tragic pasts and must seek mutual forgiveness. The primitive bosnian muslim posters here want to eradicate the Serbs and keep Bosnia all for themselves as a springboard Islamic state in the heart of Europe. In the end, they will find that all of this hatred is really a zero sum game which merely prevents Bosnia and the rest of Yugoslavia from moving on into the 21st century.
"We do not condemn Churchill..."
The Poles do. The there was Bomber Harris, who started perfecting his skills by laying down Brit poison gas on Muslims in Mesopotamia. -- I wait with baited breath for U-2 photo recon photos of the many trucks and bull dozers need to bury, disinter, and re-inter 500 tons of "Muslim men and boys"... But maybe the "analysts" haven't come back yet from their long smoke break to do their "analysis."
Spood School of Logical Fallacy, cont'd
The term "Logical fallacy" could be re-named "Spoodism". In 1962 PM Harold Macmillan poopoohed the dangers of the Vanallen radiation belt: "why, a few years back we never even heard of such a thing..." -- Spood huffs: "... show me where there was ever an official policy by Bosnian Muslims to wipe Serbs out of Bosnia and then I can take it seriously"... To wit, Alija Izetbegovic 1970, 2d edition 1990 "Islamska Deklaracija" "There can be no coexistence of Islamic with non-Islamic social institutions..." Spood cannot take X seriously, so it don't exist, do it? Spood argues as if to ridicule X is to disprove it. One could ridicule this Spoodism.
"There is a big difference between reporting casualties of war on the spot and uncovering graves meant to cover up a massacre. Srebenicia was part and parcel with an entire modus operandi of genocidal actions. It is evil. Plain and simple." That's a complex sentence .
when (s)he talks dirty... Ad rem...
Misha wrote: "When Michael Dobbs says that Mladic "ordered" a certain action, note that no time and exact quote is mentioned." JPM says: Spood & Dobbs are not writing history. They are writing novels.. "What was Napolenon thinking when he gazed out on the....?"
"There are no excuses for genocide, ever. As for the tired claims of bias and misrepresentation, they are also crap.... It is evil. Plain and simple..." --Moral equivalence arguments are crap." Hmm, sounds like Moral equivalence argument crap.
A good primer as to how historical denialists act
http://www.holocaust-trc.org/deny_history.htm
The current genocide deniers have a ready made model to work off of, and do so with gusto.
To suggest that the Serbs were not the single largest victims in the Holocaust in the Balkans during WWII is not just insulting, it reveals the depth of your contempt for historical accuracy. Even the Germans admitted that they were appalled at the Ustashi massacres and the brutality with which they carried out the liquidation of over 1.4 million Serbs, 60,000 Jews and 80,000 Roma. It make these 97,000 victims on all sides in these Civil Wars pale in comparison.
In my book Jasenovac Then and Now: A Conspiracy of Silence, I have documented the 740 Roman Catholic priests who personally murdered thousand of victims with their own hands and then fled through the Vatican Ratline for Argentina. I am the original Plaintiff in a class action law suit against the Vatican Bank for their money laundering during this period.
I did a personal biography on each one of the 740 priests. I also have the documents that reveal that Ante Pavelic, president of the first independent Nazi state of Croatia, also fled through the ratline and became the security advisor to Juan Peron who issued 34,000 visas to Croatian War Criminals. None of whom were ever brought to justice.
Documented in my book are first person testimonies of survivors of Jasenovac including eye witness accounts from German officers, Italian officers, American officers and numerous Croatian politicians who were also victimized by Ante Pavelic. My book is available on the Kindle and other readers. Here are just 14 first person testimonies in my book:
(1) Mladen Ivekovich, Jasenovac inmate/survivor,
(2) Senator Herbert Lehman, New York (1951)
(3) Josip Mravunac, Lawyer, Karlovac, Croatia, (1943)
(4) Djordje Milosha, Jasenovac inmate/survivor
(5) Colonel Ivan Babich's report to Pavelic (1941)
(6) Mario Roatta, Army General Commander of Italian occupation troops in Yugoslavia (1946).
(7) Karlheinz Deschner, German writer of With God and the Fascists, (1965).
(8) Chedomir Hubel, Jewish inmate/survivor of Jasenovac.
(9) Dr. Nikola Nikolich, Croatian doctor and inmate/survivor of Jasenovac.
(10) Edmond Gleise von Horstenau, German General in Zagreb, (1942).
(11) The Croatian Ustashi State 1941-45 written by Laszlo Hory (a Hungarian) and Martin Borszat (a German).
(12) Josip Vukelic, Croatian Catholic Priest and military Chaplain in Jasenovac.
(13) Dr. Ivo Guberina, An Ustasha Priest (1943)
(14) Friar Dionizije Juricev, personal curate of Ante Pavelic, district of Slun, (1941).
We now know that today there are 1.2 million Serbian refugees from Croatia, Bosnia and Kosovo. This represents twice the combined number of Croat, Muslim and Albanian refugees, so it is rather apparent who was the most skilled at "ethnic cleansing."
Slovenia is now an ethnically pure, Roman Catholic nation, Croatia is now an ethnically pure, Roman Catholic nation, Bosnia is ethnically divided nation and Kosovo is nearly 94% ethnically pure Albanian, having cleansied and killed 90% of the Serbs.
Spood cleverly ignores the fact that 40% of the Albanians in Kosovo were never born in former Yugoslavia and who crossed the border from Albania into Serbia each night like Mexicans who cross our borders in El Paso, Texas and San Diego, California.
It has become quite clear with $60 billion in bombing damage to Serbia and their current 52% unemployment rate who has suffered the most in this 3 sided Civil War.
But we can always count on Holocaust deniers, Genocidal victimologists, and buffoons to come forth with the best hate speech and historical revisionism. Spood...You win the prize.
GMBooks, you are an opportunistic scumbag
Your books are self-published. In other words you have even less journalistic integrity and credibility than a high school newspaper. Obviously no publishers of non-fiction took you seriously or they saw how shoddy your claims of research really were.
It appears your sole form of marketing is going around to various discussion boards when the topic is the Bosnian war and delivering this form of advanced spam to the public.
You are not even on par with David Irving. Even David Irving was capable of finding legitimate well known companies, to publish his crap.
Scumbag is appropriate, as is whiner when describing you Misha
You are just annoyed that that article completely skewers Karganovic's phony claims in a clear and succinct manner.
Nobody bothers to publish Doric. His claims have never been checked or verified by any other person prior to publication. Given his mode of promotion (online haranguing), it does little to make his claims even remotely credible.
What I find interesting is just how closely you and the others follow the same model as Holocaust deniers. Even down to making the same exact phony arguments in one case.
[I don't know how many times Dresden was used to try to excuse or equate with nazi Death camps]
What I have seen so far from you guys:
-Use of unreliable self-referential sources
-Constant bellyaching about moral equivalence
-Avoidance of actual relevant facts at all costs
-Use of wild conspiracy theories as a fallback argument
-Disdain for sources deemed objectively credible by everyone else
-Phony claims of bias
What really surprises me is how much the internet has played a role in accelerating the historical denialism process. With the Holocaust it took 1-2 generations before the liars came out of the woodwork. This was because it began in print media and limited distribution among far right wackadoodles.
Thanks to online communities, lying about history has become that much more streamlined.
Self-published books? Didn't Bennet Cerf, publisher, self-publish? ... Add another D-word to your glossary, Digital e-book. And another G-word: Google Scholar. And do stop whinnying
everyone else: the majority, c'est moi ...
As for the voice crying in the wilderness --- let 'im eat locusts...
Self publication, the free press & all that
As for Doric's self-publication, A. J. Liebling is reputed to have said "a free press exists if you own one." -- From the pulpit Spood: ... [Doric's] "claims have never been checked or verified by any other person prior to publication." That's a tall order. Impressive, if anyone is dumb enough to swallow Spoodography: how does Spood know this? Maybe (s)he talks with G-d. Is his or her dismissive -- "any other person" -- empirically based or a priori? I await Spood's naming even one single person, much less all, who is competent to pass on the quality of Doric's books. Are they as cloaked (and daggered) as Dobbs's murky photo-recon "analysts" with their lengthy contemplations? Given the logical impossibilty of Spood's empirical knowledge in materia, all of us mere mortals must conclude that Spood's dismissal is as a priori as it is sweeping. Will Spood name one or any of his/her unnamed "peer reviewers"? I can name one pillar of the print establishment, Richard C. Longworth of the Chicago Tribune, who commanded me in 1993 to cease sending him my information that the Old City of Dubrovnik had not been destroyed, as the free pressand VOA told us it had, by "Serb shelling", of course. The day before my walk-about in old Ragusa on 25 March 1992, an air raid siren went off and Dubrovnikers scurried into their cellars in fear of imminent "Serbian" bombers. The citizenry therefore didn't see the freighter in Gruz harbor that unloaded a consignment of tanks from the stores of the defunct East German Army. Humanitarian aid for Croatian "freedom fighters", old comrades from the irrelevant (Spood quote) Second World War. This information I had empirically arrived at it. In English that means I went there to see for myself. I found - and filmed - the Old city virtually unscathed. The same condition was also reported by the Serbophobe Maggie O'Kelly and NY Time's Stephen Kinzer, whose hawk-eye sometime blinks or looks the proverbial other way. When I offered to show Kommandant Longworth the footage from my Dubrovnik tour, he fulminated, "Professor, that contradicts our information!". Which is of course silently taken "from Trib wires", that is, cribbed from the NY Times. A closed loop, and "never checked or verified by any other person prior to publication."
Dubrovnik hoax -- O' Kelly [sic]
Twasn't O'Kelly, but the Guardian's Maggie O'Kane. - November 16, 1991. Copyright 1991 Guardian Newspapers Limited. The Guardian (London) LENGTH: 607 words
HEADLINE: Barbers get busy as men emerge from forsaken city
BYLINE: By MAGGIE O'KANE in Dubrovnik
"DUBROVNIK'S old city has been pock-marked rather than destroyed.
City authorities estimate that between 25 and 30 shells have landed in its centre, damaging the exterior of five important historical sites. The shells had a surprisingly low explosive charge. The damage inside the old walls is almost inconsequential..." --- Surprising? No. That fact shows direectly that there was no intention of destroying Dubrovnik... - Susan Woodward documented that the CRO strategy ws to sacrifice Vukovar and the better known Dubrovnik to stir up hatred of the Serbs. The same ploy was tried in spring 1994 for Gorazde, but the press pulled back on that "massacre" after General Rose said the damage could be cleared up with a couple brooms.
ad hominem? There' s the English barrister who slipped a note to his assistant: "no case, abuse the plaintiff's layer."
I remind Spood... the cancer rates from depleted uranium bombs dropped on Serbs has given Serbia a 3,000% increase in birth defects in the last ten years and a triple increase of cancer rates over 1991 figures. Several dozen Serbs have lost their lives with unexploded cluster bombs and several have lost limbs.
The bombing of the oil storage facilities on the banks of the Danube River polluted that river for a thousand miles through 7 countries.
Spood, the village idiot, speak with a forked tongue.
It would be nice if GMbooks actually addressed the topic
Instead of hurling insults over positions I have never taken.
You are as dishonest as they come. Trying to hijack a discussion to speak about something completely unrelated.
"Spood, the village idiot, speak with a forked tongue."
Which would be accurate if I ever addressed any of that or if it was actually related to the topic. But it isn't.
You are just a troll.
Spood Ignores The Nazi Muslims too!
There were 22,000 Nazi SS Hanjar troops in Bosnia.
Their first despicable task was to fight American forces in Italy where they killed several thousand. After Americans broke through their lines these Muslim Nazis fled back to Bosnia where their new task was to guard the railway links between the Balkans and Auscwitz where tens of thousands were put to death. In my book, Jasenovac Then & Now" A Conspiracy of Silence, I show a photograph of thousands of these Muslim Nazis being review by Himmler himself.
Tell me Spood, were you asleep during these Nazi killings or do you just suffer from historical amnesia?
Gmbooks, if the subject was WWII it would have relevance...
But it isn't. You can't even use it as an excuse for the 1990's genocide.
As I have said earlier THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR GENOCIDE.
"To suggest that the Serbs were not the single largest victims in the Holocaust in the Balkans during WWII is not just insulting"
This is an irrelevant strawman point. At no point have I ever mentioned anything to that effect. You are arguing a point nobody made.
Would you like to meet some of the survivors? I can arrange it. Hurrry, they're getting old, the ones that didn't get their throats cut in 1995, like relatives of Bill Doric and Michael Pravica. Not irrelevant when chauvinist Muslims and chauvinst Croats in our time give the Hitler salute and spray WW II graffiti: SRBE NA VRBE (loosely translated 'lynch the Serbs'; Zhidove na zidove 'Jews to the walls" (firing squads), and sing WW II ditties like "We don't drink wine, we drink the blood of Serbs". The local allusions in the texts wouldnt mean anything to the SPOODs of blogdom.
Spood's Enchiridion of Logical Fallacy
Ignoratio Elenchi aka Arguing the wrong point aka changing the subject. The only Balkan protagonists who ever defended genocide as normal were Franjo Tudjman, who said "Thank God my wife is neither Jew nor Serb" and Alija Izetbegovic, who called for Jihad, the destruction of non-Muslims who would not submit to dhimmitude after a Muslim take-over of Bosnia and Herzegovina. "The only good Serb is a dead or obedient Serb." See his Islamska Deklaracija. The burden of proof on Spood and Dobbs and the horde of G-profiteers, who are the real denialists, is to demonstrate that General Mladic, in mid-July 1995 at Srebrenica commanded an operation in which 8000 "Muslim men and boys" were murdered. That requires a demonstration that such even happened. The Muslim women in Tuzla who wrecked the ICRC offices a year after the purported event had never heard the allegation, not to speak of any such fact. Corpus, or corpora delicti? Where are the bodies? In court a plaintiff is always asked "did you file a police report?" Dobbs alleges that the CIA had collected the evidence " in real time" but that "analysts" were off-line for months. Also to be explained is why many names on the monument besides which the pious hadji Dobbs had himself photographed, are of people who had died before the war, others who had voted in elections after "Srebrenica", and many who are still walking around Bosnia.
-Trying to make unfounded equivalence arguments with the Serbian mass murderers and Allied bombing. It doesn't work for Holocaust deniers, it doesn't work for Bosnian genocide deniers either.
-Insults hurled for its own sake
-Arguing with me over points I never expressed. Taking the strawman argument to the most ridiculous degree possible.
------
Let me leave with a little note illustrating how easily notes from Holocaust denial seem to have made their way to discussion of Bosnia
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/judaica/ejud_0002_0009_0_09147.html
"One "soft-core" version is the frequent abuse of Holocaust history to create equivalencies, and to diminish the seriousness and the singularity of Nazi crimes. For example, some claim that while the Nazis had concentration camps, the United States also imprisoned Japanese-Americans during World War II; or that while the Nazis killed innocent Jews, the Allies killed innocent Germans by bombing Dresden.
But as with hard-core denial, the softer version also intentionally omits important facts: For example, while the imprisonment of Japanese-Americans was certainly racist, they were not then shot, gassed, or burned. And while reasonable people may have different views on the bombing of Dresden, civilian populations had everything to gain when the Allies took over, and everything to lose when the Nazis did."
It is so sad that the concept of genocide has been so twisted by our mainstream "free and fair" corporate-owned media that just about any military and violent action can be construed as such for political aims (e.g "General" Wesley Kanne Clark's barbaric slaughter of innocent Americans in Waco, Texas). To dare to compare the real genocides of Serbs, Jews, Gypsies and Russians during WWII with any of the recent Yugoslav civil wars is a desecration of history. Hundreds of thousands of Serbian Orthodox Christians (estimates run as high as one million) were systematically murdered by the croatian ustashe, bosnian muslim handzars, albanians, and nazis. To try to compare any of the killings in Bosnia - especiailly the highly inflated and alleged 8000 bosnian muslims and mujahadeen (especially given the large number of Bosnian Serb villagers slaughtered before Srebrenica was neutralized by Bosnian Serb forces) is a desecration of history. As a result, genocide has been cheapened by people such as Mr. Dobbs and it has been used as a political tool for subjugate "rogue" governments because Western "elite" care nothing for the real genocides of the Serbs both during WWI, WWII and the most recent civil wars.
why this needs to be repeated over and over
why the world needs to go through all of this just to prepare for another war?
wars are never ending, human cruelty will always find the way out
The comments posted in this thread reveal why this is important
Clearly the attitudes towards Bosnian-Muslims by Serbs has not changed all that much since this "history" occurred. This is a relevant inquiry precisely because the issues and attitudes that led to the conflict, (unlike the victims of the massacres at Srebrenica), are not dead.
I wonder if any of the investigators have uncovered mass graves of Serbian Orthodox Christians who perished during WWII in the real genocide perpetrated by the Nazis and their puppets: the Bosnian Muslim Handzars, the Croatian Ustashe, and Albanian fascists but mislabeled them. Many Serbs were slaughtered during WWII and in the recent civil wars. The Balkans is littered with Serbian corpses from WWI, WWII and the recent civil war. I wouldn't put it past their enemies (including Western governments) to be transposing victims with their victimizers as has happened alot. Not to deny that atrocities occurred on all sides, but the West has nearly completely denied the Serbs justice in prosecuting crimes committed against them. How many times, e.g. did we read in the mainstream corporate-owned "free and fair" mass media of alleged slaughters of non-Serbs only to find out later that they were of Serbs. This is the day and age wherein we live. Black is white and white is black, freedom is slavery, slavery is freedom, war is peace, peace is war etc. I shudder for the future of our world as we lead up to WWIII.
"War Crime " Do the SAS and the US Navy SEALS take prisoners?
Relevance of World War II by Lt General Michael Hayden,
The future head of CIA met up with WW II in Bosnia, I don't know if he knew or not, but "Posavina" means "[territory along the Sava River". In WW II the confluence of the Sava with the Danube at Belgrade was so packed, not with ice, but with Serb corpses, that the river flow was backing up. Dynamite had to be used to open a channel. Oh, but that was long agoa. How about "Never Again" and "Never Forget"? -
Lieutenant-General Michael Hayden, Director of the National Security Agency has written: "I recall one sunny afternoon at an UNPROFOR outpost overlooking … the Posavina corridor, that narrow stretch of Serb-controlled territory that connected the Serb lands in the Drina Valley with those further to the west near Banja Luka. A young man and his elderly father passed by the outpost with their sheep. [General] Michael Rose stopped them and asked a few pertinent questions of the younger man: was he in the army; how long a time was he at home before he returned to his unit; did he take his weapon home or did he leave it for his replacement? Rose, more to be polite than anything else, asked the old man if he too was a soldier. “Da,” he replied, raising his shirt, to reveal an ugly scar on his side and back, and announcing “Moskva.” He then stepped backward, assumed the position of attention, extended his right arm and hand, and proclaimed, “Heil Hitler”– obviously a veteran of the Bosnian Muslim brigade that served in the German Wehrmacht’s Waffen SS.
… Ratko Mladi?, commander of the Bosnian Serb forces, remembers history in a peculiar way. I recall sitting across the table from him at Lukavitsa barracks in a Serb-controlled suburb of Sarajevo as he recounted his version of the Serbian past—Serbia the suffering, Serbia the savior of Western civilization, Serbia the ally of the United States in two world wars. Mladi? concluded by telling our party what the war in Bosnia was all about: this was a clash of civilizations (and we Christians needed to stick together); and this was also about European big power politics (and we Americans needed to keep our eyes on the Germans).
… In Zagreb a few weeks later … Franjo Tudjman, President of Croatia, asked the U.S. delegation the same rhetorical question: What was this war all about? His answer: this was a clash of civilizations (and we Christians needed to stick together); and this was also about European big power politics (and we Americans needed to keep our eyes on the English).
In 1994, I was on a flight from Sarajevo with a senior American diplomat who had started to read Noah Malcolm’s recently published history of Bosnia. You may recall that one of Malcolm’s tenets was the historical thread and hence legitimacy of an independent Bosnian state…" --in Ethnic cleansing in twentieth-century Europe, edited by Béla Várdy and T. Hunt Tooley; associate editor, Agnes Huszár Várdy.
2003 Gorski Vijenac www hungarianhistory com lib vardy doc.doc --
General Hayden was grossly unprepared for his mission.
http://www.balkanstudies.org/articles/understanding-balkan-wars
Ratko Mladic has been described as "one of those lethal combinations that history thrusts up occasionally-a charismatic murderer." What drove the Bosnian Serb military commander to order Europe's deadliest massacre since World War II? Could it have been prevented? Michael Dobbs, a U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum fellow, investigates.
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