Dobbs’ “gear shifting” is proof that truth activism ultimately pays off and that tendentious reporting can be successfully confronted. His regurgitation of the Srebrenica narrative does not stand systematic scrutiny, and comments by a number of knowledgeable readers that have consistently followed his “posts” are a tribute to their determination not to let misrepresentations slip by unchallenged.

One of the results of that steady pressure which, judging by his increasingly irritated reactions to reader comments Dobbs does not welcome, is that in this post he is covering himself by a making a huge show of impartiality. He continues to adhere to the set matrix, of course, because that is his job and that is how he makes his living by satisfying the requirements of his institutional employers. But now he is also trying also to win some objectivity points by admitting that other players in Bosnia have committed unsavory crimes as well.

In a sense, it is a pity that Dobbs is changing gears now, right after Drazen Erdemovic’s (Srebrenica Star Witness’) personal appearance in the Karadzic trial on 27 and 28 February. It is surprising that Dobbs found nothing of interest to bring to the attention of his readers about Erdemovic’s performance in that very important case. A perusal of the transcript suggests some reasons why. Here is one.

After testifying in five Srebrenica-related trials that 1,200 prisoners were shot in Pilica, where he and members of his unit conducted executions, two weeks ago in the Karadzic trial Erdemovic also “shifted gears”. He said that he did not know the actual number of victims because he “did not count them”. That is a significant shift indeed because Pilica has become one of the emblematic sites of “Srebrenica genocide” and without reliable numbers it is difficult to see how it can retain that status. Nor is it clear how the total number of Srebrenica victims can now remain firm and unaltered. On 31 October 2011, in the Pelemis and Peric trial judgment, the Court of Bosnia and Herzegovina in Sarajevo found that the number of executed prisoners at Pilica was no longer the standard 1,200 at all, counterdicting all previous ICTY judgments dealing with that issue, which were based on Erdemovic’s evidence when he was sure of his figures. According to them, it is now “about 500”. At the same time, the physical evidence exhumed at Pilica by ICTY Prosecution forensic teams in 1996 and 1997 shows that the mortal remains of 124 persons were interred there.

It is such wide discrepancies and inconsistencies in the Srebrenica evidence that give rise to critical questions about what really happened. Those questions are coherent, reasonable, and legitimate. They would undoubtedly persist and they would be posed by intelligent people throughout the world even if the authorities of the Republic of Srpska had nothing to do with it.

So now the tribunal goes from being considered an unreliable kangaroo court to a forum for displaying "grave doubts" as to the factual assertions. I guess it only becomes reliable when it suits your argument. I especially loved when you

You are employing a kind of illogical argument seen by many holocaust deniers online. The idea that one discrepancy or difference in estimation of those dead must invalidate the fact that an event of mass murder occurred. David Irving and ilk made these kind of fallacious arguments their bread and butter for several decades. Of course none of what you discussed invalidates prior expert forensic testimony or even witness testimony in the past either.

Of course the main problem with this kind of thinking is the lack of a logical conclusion to it. If the massacre did not happen as reported, what then? Are you claiming it was some kind of hoax or conspiracy against the serbs?
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Its also kind of interesting that Dobbs all but called you and your organization a bunch of liars, but not so directly.

Frankly given your past misrepresentations its very difficult to take any factual assertion you make on the subject at face value.

I will stick to the tribunal's findings. They have a level of reliability and veracity that you don't.

Keep it up, Dobbs!

Here is a documentary made by a muslim and norwegian crew about the truth. The west doesnt care about human rights and only makes it up when they want to intervene somewhere. Watch the documentary "Srebernica: A Town Betrayed" on youtube below.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIrjffmjQg0

Commentator Spood, aka Danijel Toljaga, again is taking uninformed readers for a ride. He is counting on their unfamiliarity with the Bosnian context and thinks that anything goes. The spurious “recantation” attributed by Spood to Mirsad Fazlic for the latter's participation in the production of the Norwegian documentary “Sarajevo: A Town Betrayed” is a case in point.

Spood does not offer any source or context for the words that he attributes to Fazlic. In fact, no reliable attribution is possible because the statement in question was publicized by Swedish Bosnian-Croat journalist Tonchi Percan in a piece he wrote for Dagens Opinion on September 15, 2011: (http://www.dagensopinion.se/bosnisk-programledare-anklagar-svt-serbisk-propaganda). There is no independent corroboration that Fazlic ever said that, just Percan's claim that he did.

Following Percan's allegation, the entire production staff, including Fazlic and another Bosnian Muslim journalist who also worked on the film, Esad Hecimovic, denounced the misrepresentation of Fazlic's position and reaffirmed their common view that the documentary „Srebrenica: A Town Betrayed“ is a work of journalistic integrity:

„No Srebrenica-manipulation

„For the third time Tonchi Percan has attacked our film A Town Betrayed and accused it of being Serb propaganda. This time with a new twist. Now he claims that he has been to Sarajevo and interviewed Mirsad Fazlic about the film.

„What´s correct is that they were at a party with a lot of drinks, but no interview was asked for and no interview was given. The quotes in the article do not reflect Mirsad Fazlic’s view on the matter. If this represents the ethical standard of Percan´s work, it is gutter-journalism at its worst.

„Our team have been working on this project since 2006. Fazlic has been part of the team from the first day and like everyone else been fully aware of the content and interviews like the rest of the team. There have of course been healthy, challenging and fruitful discussions about the content, focus and form, but this is standard procedure in processes like this. It is a good way to avoid any errors and misconceptions.

„The script and the film was finished in the summer 2010. Everyone in the team has read the script, made comments and corrections. Everyone also received a copy of the film and there were no stop-signs from anyone in the team. One year later, spring 2011, the film was broadcast for the first time.

„In the film we state clearly that Bosnian Muslims (or Bosniacs) were massacred by Serb soldiers and what happened was known as the new genocide in Europe. Most of the people interviewed are Bosniac themselves and they are the ones who criticize former president Alija Izetbegovic for what they call a betrayal of the people of Srebrenica.

„The film is an independent production and no strings attached to the funding. Most of our financing has come from EU Media and the Nordic broadcasters in Norway, Sweden and Denmark. They would never support a film that promotes genocide-denial and Greater-Serbia propaganda!

„We stand by our films!

„Mirsad Fazlic (reporter), Esad Hecimovic (reporter), J.M. Berger (reporter), Roger Charles (researcher), David Hebditch (director), Ola Flyum (director), Tore Buvarp (producer) and Vibeke Haug (editor of NRK-Brennpunkt)“

See Dagens Opinion, September 23, 2011 (http://www.dagensopinion.se/%E2%80%9Cingen-srebrenica-manipulation%E2%80%9D)

This should put the matter to rest. Far from recanting like Galileo, Bosnian Muslim journalist Mirsad Fazlic has publicly affirmed his support for the ground-breaking documentary to which he has made a significant contribution and which sheds new light on Srebrenica. Readers are invited to watch the film at : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvqHWS_4AuM and make up their own minds.

And yes, Michael Dobbs, the documentary "Srebrenica: A Town Betrayed" offers a far more coherent answer to the question "Why Srebrenica?" than you have managed to articulate so far.

Stephen Karganovic engages in unwarranted accusations and misrepresentations. Person commenting under the nickname "SPOOD" is not me. This is easily verifiable and I invite Mr. Dobbs and FP staff to audit accounts. I comment using my first and last name (not nicknames).

Michael Dobbs' assertion that "around 7,000" people died in the Srebrenica genocide, which he refers to as the "deadliest massacre" but shies away from calling it genocide, is an exercise in 'minimization' of genocide. The Trial Chamber’s judgement in the case of Popovic et al. included the following findings on the number of Srebrenica victims:

“In the Prosecution’s submission, the minimum number of persons that went missing or died following the fall of Srebrenica can be estimated to be 7,826 …. The Trial Chamber is satisfied beyond reasonable doubt that at least 5,336 identified individuals were killed in the executions following the fall of Srebrenica. The Trial Chamber also notes that the evidence before it is not all encompassing. Graves continue to be discovered and exhumed to this day, and the number of identified individuals will rise. The Trial Chamber therefore considers that the number could well be as high as 7,826.” (2)(3) [our emphasis]

When Mr. Dobbs visited Srebrenica, he had an opportunity to read names of 8,372 victims -- the official figure of missing. Based on the DNA evidence, the International Commission on Missing Persons concluded 8,100 people perished in the Srebrenica massacre. Mr. Karganovic, who is employed by Milorad Dodik's Republika Srpska government and is, therefore, required to satisfy party-line politics, denies this fact.

Mr. Karganovic, personal opinions expressed in a documentary "Srebrenica: A Town Betrayed" do not represent opinions of 40,000 people who were once crammed in the besieged Srebrenica and terrorized by Serb forces.

At the end of the day, when everything is said and done, who really cares what Esad He?imovi?, Mirsad Fazli?, Ibran Mustafic, and a handful of partisan (anti-SDA/Party for Democratic Action) individuals think? They don't represent Srebrenica people; they only represent their own personal opinions.

If I told you that elephants are pink or that chickens lay eggs only in winter, would you believe me Mr. Karganovic? If not, then why are you so 'inclined' to accept arguments that fit your preconceived conclusions about Srebrenica? How much is Mr. Milorad Dodik paying you?

Who was "attacking" and who was "resisting" in Srebrenica?

Michael Dobbs, why are you giving your readers misleading information by comparing Naser Oric with Ratko Mladic? If you wish to uphold the status of award winning journalist, then you should compare only apples with apples, not apples with oranges.

You wrote: "The Muslim warlord, Naser Oric, was eventually acquitted of murder and 'wanton destruction' in Serbian villages around Srebrenica-but only because it was difficult to prove that he had exercised effective control over subordinates..."

And, what you said is a bunch of rubbish, and you know it. Why haven't you told your readers that the International Criminal Tribunal in the case of Naser Oric also found that (and I will quote it directly from the judgment):

“Between April 1992 and March 1993, Srebrenica town and the villages in the area held by Bosnian Muslims were constantly subjected to Serb military assaults, including artillery attacks, sniper fire, as well as occasional bombing from aircrafts. Each onslaught followed a similar pattern. Serb soldiers and paramilitaries surrounded a Bosnian Muslim village or hamlet, called upon the population to surrender their weapons, and then began with indiscriminate shelling and shooting. In most cases, they then entered the village or hamlet, expelled or killed the population, who offered no significant resistance, and destroyed their homes. During this period, Srebrenica was subjected to indiscriminate shelling from all directions on a daily basis. Poto?ari in particular was a daily target for Serb artillery and infantry because it was a sensitive point in the defence line around Srebrenica. Other Bosnian Muslim settlements were routinely attacked as well. All this resulted in a great number of refugees and casualties.” (ICTY, Ori? Trial Judgement, para. 103)

“Between June 1992 and March 1993, Bosnian Muslims raided a number of villages and hamlets inhabited by Bosnian Serbs, or from which Bosnian Muslims had formerly been expelled. One of the purposes of these actions was to acquire food, weapons, ammunition and military equipment. Bosnian Serb forces controlling the access roads were not allowing international humanitarian aid most importantly, food and medicine to reach Srebrenica. As a consequence, there was a constant and serious shortage of food causing starvation to peak in the winter of 1992/1993…. Numerous people died or were in an extremely emaciated state due to malnutrition… Threatened by starvation, almost everyone from Srebrenica participated in searches for food in nearby villages and hamlets under Bosnian Serb control. These searches were very dangerous; many stepped on mines or were wounded or killed by Serbs. [...] Hygienic conditions throughout the Srebrenica enclave were appalling. There was a total absence of running water. Most people were left to drink water from a small river which was polluted. Infestation with lice and fleas became widespread among the population. The Srebrenica war hospital … lacked almost all the essentials. […] Patients suffered in dreadful conditions, as no disinfectants, bandages, aspirins or antibiotics were available with which to treat them. Limbs were amputated without anaesthesia, with brandy being administered to ease the pain… ” (Oric Trial Judgement, para. 104, 110, 112-114.)

So, Mr. Dobbs, you're implying that Naser Oric was a war criminal who was acquitted due to lack of evidence? If that's your personal opinion, then fine - but as you can see from my message above, the facts of the case tell a different story.

Naser Oric was resisting Serb attacks, while Serb forces were busy plundering, torching and destroying Bosniak (Bosnian Muslim) villages around Srebrenica.

Oric had every right to attack Serbian military bases around Srebrenica in search of food for survival of a starving Bosniak population.

Bosnian Muslim babies, children, elderly... they were dying of hunger in Srebrenica, as evidenced from Oric's judgement. He had every right to resist Serbian attacks. People of Srebrenica had every right to attack in self-defense - God-given, Moral, Legal, and every other right. Period.

Before I say anything, Michael Dobbs should respond to the harsh criticisms levelled against him by Daniel Toljaga, aka Spood.

I am not Daniel Tolijaga. I keep an anonymous screen name because my professional and personal lives have far too much of an online presence under my actual name to risk cyber-stalking.

Unlike yourself, I am not paid to voice my opinions on the subject so it is important to keep my professional life out of this.

I do not write in the same style as him, make the same arguments or from judging by his last name, not the same ethnicity either.

I have never made any contentions as to the facts of what happened at Srebrenica or Mladic's action through independent means. Its never been my point

My argument has always been that the Tribunal is the most reliable arbiter of the facts in this situation and therefore I have no reason to take your claims at face value. When in doubt the Tribunal is the source to cite. Unlike yourself, it has procedures in place for vetting information and ensuring legitimate contrary arguments/evidence can and will be heard.

Unlike Mr. Toljaga, Mr. Dobbs and yourself, I have a measure of expertise in criminal law, court procedures and rules of evidence. I also have years of experience dealing with historical denialism online.

Personally I have no stake in the outcome of the tribunal. My ancestry is not from the region, nor do I have any personal connection to it. However, I have a deep loathing for people who deliberately lie about history for political purposes. I also detest those who make attacks on democratic-based courts of law just because they don't like the possible outcome and are ignorant as to how they work.

By Nedim Dervisbegovic and Daria Sito-Sucic
S R E B R E N I C A, Bosnia-Herzegovina, July 11

About 3,000 Bosnian Muslims held a solemn prayer meeting amid tight security in Serb-controlled Srebrenica today to mark the fifth anniversary of the worst massacre of the Bosnian war.

The Muslims, many of them back in their hometown for the first time since the devastating 1995 events, lined up in front of the former headquarters of the U.N. battalion where a group took shelter after Bosnian Serb forces overran the town.

Bosnian Muslim Srebrenica was one of six towns designated as a “safe area” by the U.N. Security Council in May 1993, but 110 lightly armed Dutch U.N. troops were powerless against a Serb onslaught on July 11, 1995.

The Red Cross estimated that more than 7,000 inhabitants were “missing” after the attack on Srebrenica, and the remains of some 4,000 were later found.

Many other men were killed when they tried to break out of the town through Serb lines. Their families say 10,000 people disappeared.

Bosnia’s Tragedy Is U.N.’s Shame

U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan said the tragedy would forever haunt the world body.

Groups of women among the crowd today — who arrived in a long column of buses driven through Bosnian Serb territory amid heavy security by local police and international police and troops — began wailing when they returned to the scene.

“Let them scream. We all need to scream,” said 55-year-old Fahira, who said she had lost all her adult male family members in the massacre.

She earlier berated a passing U.N. official who turned away from the crying women, some of them crouched over in agony.

“Why turn your head? Don’t turn your head. You should see our tragedy,” she said. “The last time I was in Srebrenica I was here at this very site.”

A Serb Salute

Ismet Celikovic, one of the organizers of the ceremony, which was much larger than last year’s first commemoration at the site, said the bus he arrived in had been stoned by Serbs in Bratunac.

A Western official said a woman had been arrested over the incident, which followed the burning of an empty Muslim house in Srebrenica overnight by unknown arsonists.

Bosnian Serbs lined the road on the way to the ceremony in silence and some children gave the three-fingered Serb salute when the buses passed, but there were no other incidents.

One Serb from Bratunac said people there also felt pain from the war. “Our wounds are too recent, which is why Muslims traveling to Srebrenica across Bosnian Serb territory can’t feel completely safe,” said Blazenka Nogo, 46.

Survivors Remember

In Geneva, about 100 Bosnian Muslim survivors of the massacre, along with relatives of those killed, gathered outside the United Nations’ European headquarters.

Children carried signs that said: “Five years after genocide in Srebrenica, where is my Daddy?” A white banner read: “10,000 missing civilians. Whoever pardons a crime becomes its accomplice.”

“I was lucky to get out of Srebrenica after it fell,” Avdurahman Avdic told reporters at the commemoration in Switzerland. “We walked for seven days to reach Tuzla, hiding in the forests by day and walking at night. There was an immense column of 15,000 people, easy targets.”

Two Muslim families have returned to Srebrenica recently, encouraging international officials who are trying to reintegrate a country still deeply divided by the 1992-95 war.

thanks
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Mr Dobbs,

I take exception to your claim that over 300,000 Serbs were ethnically cleansed in Croatia during the recent war.The Serb Krajina authorities ordered the population under their control to leave Croatia when their puppet state fell.

Before the war of Croatian independence, there were about 580,000 Serbs living in Croatia. Many of them were army personnel, customs officers, policemen and similar who had been sent there after World War II, and had no real roots in Croatia. After the most recent war, they voluntarily left Croatia.

As an example, two of my headmasters as well as some teachers at my secondary school in a northern Croatian town were from Serbia. Some returned back after their tenure expired, but some stayed (having retired) and left voluntarily during the war of Croatian independence.

In the same northern town - which had almost no Serbian population - three-quarters of the police force were Serbs. At the border post nearby, almost all customs and immigration officers were Serbs. They all left post-war.

You have a house on a Croatian island (which does not have a Serbian population). According to a local source, the police force there were almost exclusively Serbs before the war. You can check this yourself.

Of course not. North Korea is not doing anything differently now than it was 3 or 4 years ago. Recall that back in 06' they conducted missile and nuke tests as well. Besides, it takes years to develop this stuff. They didn't just decide in January to hobble together a bomb and a couple of rockets and light em' off. 8 years of being called the Axis of Evil has made the North Korean's somewhat nervous and eager to protect themselves. Not hard to figure out why..

"Is rio orange war always forfait sosh inevitable ?"
MaximB

"Muslims also committed war crimes, albeit fewer in number than the other ethnic groups, reflecting their position as the weakest of the three parties. "

You throw off generalisations without apparently understanding the real significance of what you are saying. Did you not stop to think that an alternative and more convincing reason why the Bosnian Muslims/Bosniaks committed fewer war crimes might have been because they didn't start the war with the intention of committing war crimes? They didn't set out to pursue a war of aggression aimed at eliminating the members of another group from territory they aimed to bring under their control.

I respect the good intentions that appear to inspire your attempts to find your way on the subject of Srebrenica but good intentions are just not enough. Your lack of real awareness is leading you to take some questionable positions. The effectiveness of your confrontation of the egregious Karganovic is undermined and your conscientious investigation of Mladic's sole at Srebrenica is compromised as a result.

Great articles, I was thinking about that lately.
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The vast majority of those killed were adult men and teenage boys but the victims included boys aged under 15, men over the age of 65, women and reportedly even several babies.[24][25] The Preliminary List of People Missing or Killed in Srebrenica compiled by the Bosnian Federal Commission of Missing Persons contains 8,373 names,[7] some 500 of them under 18,[26] and includes several dozen women and girls.[25][27] As of June 2011, 6594 genocide victims have been identified through DNA analysis of body parts recovered from mass graves[28] and 5,138 victims have been buried at the Memorial Centre of Poto?ari.[29][30] addiction treatment center

In 2005, in a message to the tenth anniversary commemoration of the genocide, the Secretary-General of the United Nations noted that, while blame lay first and foremost with those who planned and carried out the massacre and those who assisted and harboured them, great nations had failed to respond adequately, the UN itself had made serious errors of judgement and the tragedy of Srebrenica would haunt the UN's history forever.[8]

Serbia became the first state to be found in breach of the Genocide Convention. In the Bosnia and Herzegovina v. Serbia and Montenegro case the International Court of Justice presented its judgment on 26 February 2007. It cleared Serbia of direct involvement in genocide,[31] but ruled that Belgrade did breach international law by failing to prevent the 1995 Srebrenica massacre, and for failing to try or transfer the persons accused of genocide to the ICTY, in order to comply with its obligations under Articles I and VI of the Genocide Convention, in particular in respect of General Ratko Mladi?.[32][33][34] Mladi? had been accused by the ICTY and was suspected of hiding in addiction treatment center

A warlord usurps the legitimate authority for his own purposes. However rough and ready Oric's methods of maintaining control may have been - and there is limited substantiated katalog stránekevidence available - Oric never seems to have lost sight of the fact that he was a local commander loyal to his government but committed while remaining mindful of his primary task - to ensure the survival of tens of thousands of desperate refugees whose very existence was threatened. "Warlord" is an inappropriate epithet in the circumstances.Oric was clearly not a man to be katalog stránek crossed lightly and the regime in Srebrenica during the siege was not a transparent democratic local administration. But I'm mindful of the significance of what Oric achieved in the late spring of 1992 after the initial Serb capture of Srebrenica and through the years until 1995.